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I went through and counted the homers in the different levels. I didn't realize how many of those level were already LH! Seven of them -- Logic, Fuzed, Black Rose, Vamped, Take2, Nocturnal, and Flea -- have two homers or less. Neptune has three. Nysa (12) and Athena (16) are definitely exceptions. I could see taking that two ways, though; either LH is the standard loadout and those two should be struck, or FH needs some representation!

I really do want to stand my ground on Nysa. The homers are present, and occasionally you can get 10 . . . but it's just a big piece of how the level is, and how it has been for a long time. I think part of what mitigates it is that the level itself is so big, so a lot of the homers are out of play at any given time. And it's not like it just became a homery level recently. It always has been, and people have always played it -- a lot!

I do think Athena might make more sense as an LH, though. The LH version is about equally popular with the FH version here, and if memory serves, it's been that way for a long time. Plus, it should not be forgotten . . . that missile catcher used to actually work. So the version we used to play was lesser homers than the full set anyway.

I do appreciate the discussion! It's always a fine line between "just make decisions and don't bother people" and "be transparent, follow the community". It's a good conversation to have, and I'm grateful for your input.

Maybe more people will weigh in. Lothar's right -- if a lot of people agree Nysa FH isn't core, we should take it out. But my vote as a pilot is that it totally is!

Here's a list of all the matches that have been played in any sort of Nysa:

Jediluke 20 Drakona 3 Nysa
Dravis 20 Blarget2 13 Nysa
Jediluke 20 DKH 14 NYSA
Jediluke 20 Drakona 5 Nysa
Jediluke 20 Drakona 3 Nysa
Drakona 20 LotharBot 18 NYSA
Mark392 20 Drakona 10 Nysa
Jediluke 20 Mark392 5 NYSA
Jediluke 20 Mark392 10 Mega NYSA
LoNi_ 20 Drakona 12 Nysa
Jediluke 20 bahamut 11 NYSA(Less homers)
Jediluke 20 Drakona 4 Nysa
bahamut 23 JinX 21 NYSA- LESS HOMERS
Jediluke 20 Drakona 5 Nysa
Jediluke 20 Drakona 7 Mega Nysa
Jediluke 20 Drakona 8 Nysa
LoNi_ 20 Behemoth 12 NYSA NH
Jediluke 20 Drakona 4 Nysa
Jediluke 20 Drakona 3 Nysa
Jediluke 20 Drakona 8 Nysa

Keep in mind that roughly 80% of all levels in the list have about 2 homers in them total. Your odds of getting a 'LH' kind of level is 80%. NYSA LH isn't even NYSA the way it's meant to be played...it goes from like 12 homers to 4? That's an extreme reduction. Athena LH only goes down to 8 which is more reasonable. I 'personally' would be ok with NYSA LH if it had 8. (I'm sure someone could easily make that)

I don't want this to sound harsh...but...keep in mind that IF you can't agree on a level. Then by default you agree to push the random button and ultimately have to deal with what that means (as you can not refuse to play someone on this ladder)

It would be wise to look at the list of levels in there and make sure you are familiar/comfortable with them because at some point you will likely find yourself playing them.

There are a couple of levels I'd personally like to see removed from the list as they are not my 'cup of tea' but I just have to play them more and figure out how to handle them because there is a chance it will land on those levels when I have to push the button.

Had some email discussion with Drakona and would just like to add that, I wouldn't mind using the button "as-is with no stipulations" if at least Athena was listed as LH. I'm not a programmer by any stretch and don't know what the missile trap used to be, and why it's not working, but I just know that now if you play that with full homers it feels like Both pilots are carting around 8 homers apiece the whole game!

Adjusting that one to LH, and leaving Nysa as-is, is a decent compromise, imo.

Cheers for the discussion, and especially to Drakona for continuing it over email :)

I'm personally ok with Athena GV or Athena LH (8 homers). I'm also ok with playing any level that happens to be in that random level generator list despite personally not liking a couple of the levels. (take 2, nocturnal, black rose)

just fyi
11 unique pilots have played NYSA(all versions)
3 unique pilots chose Mega
2 unique pilots chose LH
2 unique pilots chose NH

Also, the levels weren't selected according to which levels are most commonly played amongst the top 10 (all Gold) pilots so I'm not entirely sure why that keeps coming up.

Quote: Jedi, "by default" the button may indeed mean that someone would agree to play the full homer version. But, if that is your stipulation, I'm not going to press the button and we'll have to agree on a level another way.

I think you are missing the point. Pushing the button is for when two pilots failed to agree on a level choice. It is not 'my' stipulation. It is a tool that two pilots are required to use, per the rules of the ladder, should the two pilots be unable to agree upon a level. If we do not agree on a level choice then we must push the button. You can not refuse a challenge simply because you can not agree on a level. That's why the tool exists.

Now, is this a tool that is giong to see heavy use 'because' pilots can't agree to a level through normal means? Probably not. It IS a tool, however, for when the occassion arises where an agreement was not reached.

Actually, the tool will likely see heavier use simply because people recognize that all of the levels listed are levels they are liklely already playing any way and it will simply make the decision quick and easy for both pilots.

I have used this tool MANY times and I have yet to use it even once due to being unable to agree on a level.

Yeah, especially given Drak's reply above Athena GV would be great for me, too. She mentioned she thinks it stands for "Good Version" ;). Not sure if that's really true, but it's appropriate :) especially with Rebirth!

Who made GV..was it Grax? Anywho...the best thing about GV is it has no reactor to pound your ears non stop and it's LH from what I understand....though I have not counted them...anyone know how many homers it has?

Yeah, I totally think Athena GV should be the standard version. Unfortunately, it isn't popular enough on its own to pass my "community leads" test, but I think that's just because most pilots don't know about it. If everyone's willing to look the other way while I blatantly abuse my admin power and make that particular level version required . . . that would be grand.

Athena GV has two homers, three smarts, no reactor, and no missile catcher (not that it works anyway, but that demonstrates that the original intent was to KEEP that missile loadout where it is over a match).

Base Athena as 16 homers and 5 smarts.